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Schmooze with Suze
Hi, I’m Suze. Here with your dose of culture, values and global citizenship- and where we tackle those topics others may consider off-limits.
A little about me, I’m a busy GenX mom who, quite frankly, wanted to grow up like the Brady Bunch… But ended up being raised in the shadow of Schindler’s List. So this means I’ve spent a lifetime navigating these mixed messages we get hit with daily. You know those conversations- where we wonder if it’s safe to speak our minds? Can we share our experiences? Voice our fears and concerns, or should we just keep our mouths shut?
Well, too bad. I need to know! But I’m no expert. So, I’m going to schmooze the experts and get their thoughts. Why? So when we engage with our kids, colleagues, or the countless committees we interact with, we can do it with competence, kindness, confidence, and maybe a bit of humor.
If this sounds like your cup of coffee- welcome to Schmooze with Suze!
Schmooze with Suze
Can You Please Ask Me Your Uncomfortable Questions? My Guest: Pastor John Allen Newman, The Sanctuary at Mt. Cavalry
I start this episode by calling him "Reverend." He corrects me, "Pastor."
I am sincerely sorry. He is graciously forgiving.
I made an honest mistake without malicious intent.
We move on to a meaningful conversation.
When I was little, we knew what racists were. There were enough people of different colors and different languages, from different parts of the globe, on East 5th Street that you either were obviously a "Goonie" or you weren't. And all it took to be one of us was total acceptance that we were all different, that's it. So if someone brought a friend over, you better make sure they were like us, accepting. Except since most of us were actually siloed by our differences during the daytimes- by yeshiva or Catholic school, by mosque or kingdom hall...
Once they hit our block, you were cool until you weren't.
So when did asking questions start to become the first sign that you might be offending me? And that's what we're going to tackle today.
PastorJohn Allen Newman of The Sanctuary @ Mt. Cavalry in Jacksonville, Florida http://www.thesanctuaryatmtcalvary.com/ joins me to share his journey from a segregated bedroom community of Philadelphia to a life shaped by social justice. Together, we explore how curiosity and open dialogue are keys to bridging cultural divides with empathy and confidence. You’ll hear about pivotal moments that molded our understanding of race and identity- from youth sports competitions tainted by discrimination to the historic collaborative spirit of the African American and Jewish communities.
Ever wondered if embracing other cultures means abandoning your cultural roots? Pastor Newman and I tackle this misconception head-on, discussing how the true beauty of diversity reflects the divine image. We emphasize unity, sharing personal anecdotes and interfaith friendships that illustrate how core values, rather than rigid doctrines, can foster a sense of community.
This episode is a tribute to those making a tangible impact. Join us as we encourage solidarity against discrimination, and inspire each other to push boundaries and speak out.
Pastor John Allen Newman is a dynamic preacher, teacher, counselor and leader, whose focus in ministry is the integration of faith and life. Throughout his tenure as Senior Pastor of The Sanctuary@ Mt. Calvary in Jacksonville, Florida, his has been a ministry different from others. It is his desire to empower those with whom he has the opportunity to share , the importance of self examination on the path to becoming better.
http://www.thesanctuaryatmtcalvary.com/pastor-newman/
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When I was little, we knew what racists were. There were enough people of different colors and different languages, from different parts of the globe on East 5th Street that you either were obviously a goonie or you weren't, and all it took to be one of us was total acceptance that we were all different, that's it. So if someone brought a friend over you better make sure they were like us, accepting, except since most of us were actually siloed by our differences during the daytimes, by yeshiva or Catholic school, by mosque or kingdom hall. Once they hit our block, you were cool until you weren't. So when did asking questions start to become the first sign that you might be offending me? And that's what we're going to tackle today.
Speaker 1:Hi, I'm Suze, coming to you with a dose of culture, values and global citizenship and where we might tackle those topics others may consider off-limits. A little about me. I'm a busy Gen X mom who, quite frankly, wanted to grow up like the Brady Bunch. But how could I, being raised in the shadow of Schindler's List? So this means I've spent a lifetime navigating these mixed messages we get hit with daily. You know those conversations where we wonder if it's safe to speak our minds. Can we share our experiences, voice our fears and concerns, or should we just keep our mouths shut? Well, too bad. I need to know, but I'm no expert, so I'm going to schmooze the experts and get their thoughts. Why so? When we engage with our kids, colleagues or the countless committees we interact with, we can do it with competence, kindness, confidence and maybe a bit of humor. If this sounds like your cup of coffee, welcome to Schmooze with Suze.
Speaker 1:My best friend, mary Elizabeth Eileen Myers Russo, was the product of a nun who never got her habit and the most incredible train conductor the New York City Transit Authority had ever encountered. These two crazy kids ran off in the 60s and raised my childhood best friend in a world so different than mine as the grandkid of four Holocaust survivors. So when she first walked the stairs into the Pollock household, every question was registered with an expression of awe and fascination. It was clear this was purely experiential and educational. She had to know why there was more Hebrew lettering than English alphabet everywhere. Why do we have two sets of everything in the kitchen? Do my grandparents speak any English? What are those numbers tattooed on your grandmother's arms?
Speaker 1:Over the years the questions grew and I had to know about her bunny village and tell me about Jesus. And of course, we know about that. We've heard of the shroud. No, it's not bad, it's something we talk about. Wait, what does he teach? Yeah, I guess I do follow your same rules. Okay, I need to know about the Pope. How do they pick a Pope? What does that smoke mean? All I know is that all those decades, from preschool to post-grad, we had so many questions. And today I'm inviting my new friend, reverend John Allen Newman, because I love questions as much as you do.
Speaker 2:Welcome, glad to be here, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Thank you and welcome Welcome to Schmooze with Suze. Thank you for the invitation. So let's start with some questions. I would love to know. I grew up on East 5th Street in Brooklyn, new York. Where did you grow up?
Speaker 2:I grew up in a bedroom community of Philadelphia, pennsylvania, called Lansdowne, pennsylvania. Some folks confuse it with Lansdale, but it's Lansdowne. Okay, it's actually about less than a mile from West Philadelphia's border, very, very close In fact, when you go across the train tracks and a lot of communities are separated by train tracks.
Speaker 2:You look down towards the east and you will see downtown Philadelphia brightest day. It's a beautiful, beautiful sight. And so, again, like I said, it's a bedroom community of Philadelphia and it was quite segregated when I was growing up and our block, again on the other side of the tracks, was predominantly African-American and, as you would go north, on the other side of the tracks, that was predominantly white and when I grew up in Lansdowne it was kind of very Dickensian.
Speaker 1:It's kind of like a tale of two cities.
Speaker 2:Very much so, and I went to a school that was integrated, but I do remember being bused in my sixth grade in order to meet the desegregation demand. Wow.
Speaker 1:So how did that feel to be picked up from where you were comfortable and you had your community, and then be told that, for your own benefit, you're going to be sent someplace else?
Speaker 2:We really well. Let me speak for myself. I wasn't cognizant of that. All I knew was oh, this was my next school, so instead of walking to school, which I would do every day, I was being bused to another school, and, interestingly enough, that school now is predominantly African-American. It's amazing. It's amazing how the migration shifts of demographic patterns, and so I grew up there and had some really good experiences. Grew up there and had some really good experiences, and I recognized in retrospect more of the racism, or the racializing of my existence as I looked backwards. I was an athlete, so I played football and baseball, and one of the things that happened when I played football was that I participated, and I was a varsity letterman, so I was pretty good, and so I discovered what's something called pass, punt and kick. That was something that was done by the NFL.
Speaker 2:You pass the ball, you get to punt the ball and kick the ball. And it was a regional kind of competition where I won it. And I remember going to a banquet and one of the Philadelphia Eagles and it was Pete Retzlaff I remember like yesterday Poor memory You're talking about like a long time ago, right and so he came and I took a picture with him and so forth and so on. And then during the Super Bowl, I happened to be watching it and saw where all of the winners of the past punt and kick contest were there for the national contest. That's how I found out. I knew nothing about that, and so that was a way that I recognized that perhaps the color of my skin disallowed me from being made aware of that invitation or that I was entitled to participate.
Speaker 1:Wow, and how old were you?
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness, I was probably at that point around I'll say 13, 12, 13 years old, and that's how I realized that, wow, but I won my region, I won it, but I never got the invitation. And so that's why I say in retrospect, I was able to kind of discern, because even at that moment it didn't hit me. It hit me later on, as I became more aware of the difference between me and others predicated on the racializing of my skin.
Speaker 1:That's such an interesting idea, because I often ask myself when do you realize that other people are different than you, or that you're different than other people, and that becomes the lens with which you see that situation? In this case, you were seen as different from other people. You had never seen yourself as different from them all this time.
Speaker 2:Not really.
Speaker 1:And that's and you know it's an interesting thing because when we're having this conversation you're saying African-American and I remember the first time that I realized I was aware of both that growing up on East fifth street we had Nigerian neighbors, so they were black, they weren't African-Americans, but we had friends who were third generation and so they were black. They weren't African Americans, but we had friends who were third generation and so they were, in fact, african Americans. And so as the years progressed which is how I started this episode when did questions become so uncomfortable that we're too scared to ask them? I now recognize the distinction between those two words black and African American. I think a lot of people maybe didn't or don't, and so they were too scared to ask and so they just don't say either word. Now, in your community right, you say the trail, the railroad tracks. I imagine it's probably like a CSX line, because I'm from New York I had the F train that was an above ground subway and that's different. Uh, above ground train. That's different above ground train and that's separated. Two neighborhoods Also that separated the ultra Orthodox Jewish neighborhood from my neighborhood.
Speaker 1:My parents had left their enclave on the other side of the tracks, very insular European immigrant Holocaust survivor community that spoke mostly Yiddish as their first language. So I me growing up on East fifth and I go back to East fifth my whole life because that was the Genesis of being aware of how lucky I was to live in a mosaic, and so I've spent my entire life since then trying to capture that essence of how our differences highlight our superpowers. So when I met you, which was during that transition committee right, it was during Mayor Deegan's transition team and every time you opened your mouth you had this presence of how your congregation fits in the greater scheme of how Jacksonville can be elevated and how our communities can be de-siloed, and I found like a kindred spirit in that. So in your neighborhood, did you grow up with any Jewish friends? Did you meet Jewish people growing up In the neighborhood?
Speaker 2:No, but when I went to pastor my first church in Philadelphia, I was a part of fact. I was a founding member of an organization called Black Clergy of Philadelphia and Vicinity. I was the communications director, so I did all the media stuff. Now you got to remember, I'm not surprised Penn Jordan, which is Pennsylvania, jersey, delaware, that kind of megalopolis had about, I think, maybe seven to 9 million people that's how many people are in that Penn Jordan area. And so we had clergy from the Penn-Girardella area, but primarily from Philadelphia, and we dealt with social justice issues. And during the time when I was in college, I was heavily influenced by Dr Anthony Campolo, who helped us understand that the gospel of Jesus Christ walked on two solid legs. It wasn't just about where you go when you die, it was about how do you live out your faith. And living out that faith fundamentally meant that you had to connect with those who were called the least of these. And so, for instance, we brought food when there was a standoff between you may not remember this when there was a group called Move in Philadelphia and they were firebombed, unfortunately, by the mayor it happened to be an African-American, mayor, wilson Good. It happened under his watch. Well, we brought them food. We dealt with the school crisis when the union and school board couldn't get along and the mayor couldn't make it happen, and so 24 of us wore our robes and blocked traffic at Broad and Vine Street, which is the main artery in Philadelphia, and we all got arrested. 24 of us did. But the reason why I mentioned my relationship with the Jewish community was that we worked hand in hand with rabbis and pastors to to deal with social justice issues, and so that's what really helped me to recognize the kindred kind of spirits we had towards justice.
Speaker 2:Then also my mother. Now here's another interesting thing. I was born to very, very elderly parents. My father was 53 when I was born, my mother was 41. And so if my father were alive today this is 2024, he would be 122 years old. Wow, right, right. So my mother is the one who acclimated to me growing up in West Virginia, which she did. My father was from Lansdowne, but growing up in West Virginia, she talked about and you may have heard me reference this how, during the depression, the only folks who had each other's backs were blacks and Jews. They took care of each other because they were both being oppressed.
Speaker 2:And so it drew them together, and my mother would often in her latter years, talk to me about how sad it was to her how in many instances the black and Jewish community had not been as close as they once were. Right, because she remembers how they took care of each other yes, of each other. So a lot of that was kind of education in my mother's knee. Also my own existential experience and working as a pastor and working with Jewish leadership and bringing justice to issues we were concerned about in Philadelphia.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that sounds very organic and authentic. I think you're right. I think in Brooklyn, it wasn't until the crown house riots that there was a distinct division. In fact, uh, back in the seventies, my dad's first business partner partner was a black man. Um, and I don't remember, uncle John, I don't remember there ever being a sense, and maybe that's why my parents did move from that very insulated enclave because they were more open-minded in that respect and to give us the opportunity to see things differently. Because, like I've come to discover, you said in retrospect hindsight is, you know, 2020 or it's LASIK surgery? Good, but I didn't know how privileged I was to grow up with no concerns that someone would take it the wrong way.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so now I said, before this episode kicked off, that for me in the last decade, very intentionally understanding that I moved to a place where my first historical tour was in St Augustine and what did they teach you about? Where Martin Luther King Jr was arrested at the hotel. And then it triggered the civil rights act of 1964. And I remember taking a class in a class in high school it was an elective called decade sixties. We thought what we were going to be learning about was tie dye and weed.
Speaker 1:It was an easy a.
Speaker 1:It turned out that, exactly what you just mentioned, they were feeding us the history of social justice and they were teaching us what the Torah taught us about Sedeq, about justice, and they were melding the two into social action and community impact and global citizenship.
Speaker 1:And so when you say the black and the Jewish community, I think possibly it's the connection to faith, it's the connection to the other things that I'm learning more. And again, I hope that you're not going to take this the wrong way and my listeners won't take this the wrong way, but as I'm exploring the city that I'm raising my kids in and I spend more time out East, some of what I have heard is people taking pride in the community they grew up in, where the doctors were African-American, their bankers, their insurance agents, everyone in their community within 15 minutes of walking distance looked and grew up just like them, same as me. My community, my East fifth street, was the same, but my doctor was Jewish and my banker was Jewish and it wasn't any different. And it wasn't until somewhere in the nineties that I started to hear people talk about how all Jews were in money or in finance and I was like wait what? But in these other communities, you know and my Hispanic friends, they go to a Hispanic lawyer who's not Jewish.
Speaker 1:When did we start to silo ourselves in this space that for me, I felt that the tragedy that happened outside your congregation last year, the dollar general, was what gave us a quick, swift kick of get your unity back together. Jacksonville, this is not who you are or whose you are, so talk to me a little bit about your congregation, where you fit in, how global citizenship has impacted the way you preach, the way you teach, the way you move through our brave, safe space. A bold city with the potential for pilot possibilities.
Speaker 2:Jacksonville could be so much more, and we hope that it does become that One of the things that we've often mentioned. I know that I have more than once, so I hope it's not like a broken record, but we don't want the epitaph to be written on the tombstone of Jacksonville died with great potential. It has a lot of potential and, unfortunately, what has really siloed many of us is our either lack of due diligence or lack of information as to what reality is in our lives. We have a tendency to have this confirmation bias where I want to hear what I want to hear and it confirms what I already think. We don't challenge ourselves enough anymore, and so, even though there's nothing at all wrong with intra-community support or the circulation of dollars in a community that enhances the community, that's nothing that should be pejorative. So if you have a Jewish doctor or a lawyer, whatever, in terms of your professional access, there's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 2:The problem is when people think that somehow, when you silo that, that you're discounting other communities and you're not discounting other communities. It's just a part of who you are and that's okay. Discounting other communities it's just a part of who you are in this, that's okay. The other aspect, I think and it goes back to the information piece I was mentioning when people are in these silos and then they start hearing that there is some level of supremacy to their silo than to others, and then they begin to look at others through a different lens, that you're not just different, which is diversity we all are, but I'm better that's a problem and that's a sickness that we're not really doing well in in the country as a whole, in Jacksonville in particular, we're getting better than we were, of course, but there's still this kind of dichotomization between us versus them, because we become so siloed.
Speaker 2:And when we challenge ourselves to better information and that is a challenge because, as M Scott Peck says, you know, one of the greatest challenges you have in your life is self-examination when we examine ourselves and realize, you know what, my perspectives aren't broad enough, there's more to what I know than what I know, there's a great unknown out there Then I challenge myself to find out what that is. And too many of us get comfortable in our silos in our communities, don't challenge ourselves and then believe that, well, my way is the right way. It's not necessarily so. People have different ways of doing things and we have to appreciate the fact that, in their authenticity, they're being true to themselves.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, and two things can be true at the same time.
Speaker 2:Time and one doesn't have to be discounted. And sadly, in many, in many, sadly today, very sadly today I'm going to try to be careful about how I put this but in many Christian communities there is hostility to diversity as opposed to hospitable diversity I love that expression, diversity and the reason why is because people believe that in order for instance, I'll talk about the church in order to be a Christian, then you have to now get rid of everything else before that. So I'm a Christian first, meaning that I'm not African-American Christian, I'm not Italian American, I'm not. Whatever the case may be, I'm Christian because I follow Jesus and what they don't recognize.
Speaker 2:And this is going into something deep called supersessionalism, where the church replaces the Israel right, the supersessionalism which is really not accurate theologically speaking, and it comes from a scripture where it talks about you know the law and how the two now have become one and a new person has been, or a new man, so to speak, has been created. But what they don't realize is that it's not talking about that God wants us to get rid of diversity. That is absolutely not. The truth is that diversity shouldn't be seen through the eyes of hostility, because God made all of us in his image.
Speaker 1:But selim Elohim in the divine image, we all have it.
Speaker 2:And we say in Greek the imago dei. Yes, so we've been made in God's image. In the beauty of diversity, in the tapestry, in the landscape of all of our pigmentation, or lack thereof, we complete the imago dei. We complete the image of God.
Speaker 1:It's a mosaic.
Speaker 2:It is.
Speaker 1:Why did everyone think that it was going to be one color like all teal? It's going to be all Duval teal.
Speaker 2:But here's the problem with colorblindness, which people think is a virtue, but it's not. It's a deception, because you always default into the dominant culture. When you look for color blindness, you look for color sameness, you default into what's dominant. Well, that would mean that for me, because the dominant culture is white culture, that I would have to be a Christian. I've got to default into white culture and lose my blackness.
Speaker 2:No, god, basically saying I created all of you to be a mosaic, as you said, without your contribution to the picture, it's incomplete and so and so, therefore, I don't have to stop being black, you don't have to stop being Jewish, you don't have to stop being Hindu, you don't have to stop being Indian. Be who you are.
Speaker 1:That is God, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2:Image of God complete.
Speaker 1:So, by the same token, one of the best trips I ever took in my life was and I've been to Israel many times, I've been too, thankfully oh, it's beautiful. What's so special is this trip called Momentum and it was a women's trip, specifically for mothers. Their core message is unity without uniformity. For a Jewish group to say unity without uniformity, it elevated the entire experience of connectivity exponentially. Because for me, the idea of religion I said my best friend was Mary Beth. We were, I mean, a nun without a habit and some rabbi history. The two of us would sit on the stoop and we would talk for hours. We were, and it ultimately became not interfaith but multi-faith. Right, cause we didn't like converge. She didn't become Jewish and I didn't become Christian. We celebrated each other's experiences Like I would celebrate your birthday. It's not my birthday, right, I'm coming to your party Doesn't make it my birthday, I'm not turning your age. That became okay Somewhere along the way. I remember there was a little concern my mother had that there would be someone attempting to maybe try to convert us or there would be some kind of, which never happened. There was that respect and acknowledgement. So, unity without uniformity.
Speaker 1:Here we are, and I know that when I think of my core values and I ask myself three questions when it comes to any decision Will it please God, is it good for my family? Depending on the circumstance, the third question changes Is it good for me or is it good for my community? Okay, but the first question will it please God? It's not a religious question. God is inside of me. God is not in a place of worship, because I take God with me everywhere I go, because I ask that question everywhere I am. If the answer is no, I don't have to go to my second question. It doesn't matter. Done, right. The answer is yes. Is it good for my family? Now I get to think about what does family mean? You're my family. Now that I see that we share values in our community. Our goal is to see us all thrive and for all of our children to succeed and bring hope into the future. Will it make me happy? Well, is it good for my community, right?
Speaker 1:None of those are specifically religious questions about a religion per se. They're about our values. So I want to talk about your congregation, because I watch you online on Wednesdays, if you're interested. Pastor Newman does an amazing service. That you can communicate via chat. Is this something that you started organically during COVID as a way to connect? Did you find yourself as a media influencer in this religious space? How did you navigate a pulpit to a personal experiential connection that makes me want to come and sit in a pew, but I won't come without an invitation and I will bring my husband. You're invited.
Speaker 2:Actually, we we began. I began being online well before the COVID situation. I would do on Sunday evenings I forget what I used to call it. It was from six until seven evenings. I forget what I used to call it. It was from six until seven, but it was something about. Well, let me give you an essence of what it was. We would come online At that point we had chat rooms.
Speaker 2:You can remember that. Yes, I do, okay. So I had a chat room where people could come on and I would say this is very organic. So, whatever you're dealing with, whatever issues you're dealing with, let's talk about it, and people will put all kinds of stuff in there. I would just deal with it right there.
Speaker 1:You would counsel.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would, I would counsel, and I've always had a proclivity or an interest more so in neurotheology. So it's the hybrid of neurology and theology how the brain works, because when you know better you can do theology, so how the brain works, because when you know better, you can do better.
Speaker 1:Neuroplasticity it's the essence of spirituality.
Speaker 2:You're growing. Our brains are malleable and they can be trained and taught and changed because of the malleability. So I would do that and I was pastoring, of course, at the same time. I would do that and I was pastoring, of course, at the same time, but then on Sunday mornings we had our Facebook. It was just Facebook at that point and we would broadcast. We were doing that before COVID, but of course it took on a totally different level of significance after we got into COVID and we shut down because a lot of our church is elderly and half of our staff COVID took from us.
Speaker 2:So it was, it was real. May their memories be for a blessing. Thank you, it was real. So we've had an online presence, but the Wednesdays kind of transitioned into again back to almost like that counseling space. But some theology, you know, some biblical concepts that you've heard me talk about mishpat and tzedakah and other things that are in the Hebrew Relevant you talk about what's relevant in social justice, which is always relevant.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I've tried, in fact, almost this whole year I've been really doing deeper dives and helping people understand those of us in the Christian community that the Bible that the New Testament references is really the Septuagint. You know, that was the Bible they grew up on, that's all the Bible they knew. And even the Old Testament wasn't canonized until 90 AD at Jamnia near Joppa, and the New Testament after 367, after the encyclical letter of Athanasius. So when they talk about all scriptures given by inspiration, they're talking about the Torah, they're talking about the Nidim, they're talking about the Ketubim. That's what they're talking about. And so I've been helping our congregation understand the roots. If you really want to understand the beauty of our faith, you got to dig deep into the roots of Judaism, and that's what we've been doing.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, that's what we've been doing.
Speaker 2:And so it's been fun, because that's how I taught them that the word that we like to use for judgment is actually justice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's justice.
Speaker 2:Yes, we translate it judgment, right. And so when we talk about judgment begins at the house of God right, it's about justice really begins at the house of God. We like to make it into this condemnation thing. In the Christian community we like to condemn people. I mean, seriously, you know who's the flavor of the month, you know. I mean we're very easy to condemn folk and don't realize that the faith is. It really comes down to the Shema. It just comes down to you, love God. Do you love your neighbor as you love yourself?
Speaker 2:Yes, that's it, and that's really everything that Rabbi Jesus taught. Actually, that's it. That's really what he taught. Yes, that's it. And that's really everything that Rabbi Jesus taught. Actually, that's it. That's really what he taught. Yes, and? And we get caught up into the politicization flying an American flag or a Democrat or lots of geopolitics, lots of extras, which is dangerous because we think we equate, that our political perspective is the perspective of God and God always transcends politics.
Speaker 1:Correct.
Speaker 2:When I, when I was, I had the privilege of preaching in Russia years ago in Moscow and at the first Baptist church of Moscow, and and I attended, I attended a round table discussion at the Kremlin believe it or not, oh wow, Between believers and atheists. And so when I made it, I had in my in my.
Speaker 1:In Russia, where atheism is like the standard of you, have achieved all things better than everyone else.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. But the church, believe it or not, was alive. But they had a lot, of, a lot of restrictions on you, couldn't, you couldn't go out and meet in proselytize. You can't, you can't you couldn't go out and meet in proselytize, you, can't you?
Speaker 1:couldn't, you can't explain, you can't give hope, you can't they don't right and the red lights went off when they saw my bible.
Speaker 2:You could bring one by, but I brought it and the red lights went off. They went to all my bags and everything was fun. But what I'm saying is that I I recognize there that when I went to to testify, what do we have in common? What we have in common is that nuclear missiles don't decide if you're Democrat or Republican, whether you're Russian or American.
Speaker 1:Whether you're Israeli or Palestinian.
Speaker 2:Israeli or Palestinian Bombs kill people, bullets kill people and it was so important in that moment when I mentioned that and I preached this too that God transcends government, and I'll never forget this. One of the Russians I had become friends with I was there almost three weeks. One of the Russians I became friends with his name was Yuri. We were going to get together for what we had called the American Gala, which is our last thing we did, where we invited everybody to come, and he called me that next morning and said I can't come. I said why? He said someone overheard our conversation we were talking about because he was agreeing that God is above government and he got in trouble for agreeing with me in that conversation and I recognized then that that truth some can't handle because they want to nationalize God for their purpose. That's what Putin has done. The Russian Orthodox Church is one of his biggest supporters because they have nationalistic Christianity there and we're trying to do that here and that is really dangerous.
Speaker 1:So let's go back to the top of the show. Is this why people are scared to ask more questions? Because what if someone overhears my question and takes it as a statement and then condemns me or cancels me or judges me and I won't have a chance to explain? Or, in the case of some of the situations lately, I always feel like I'm defensive and I feel like I'm always having to explain things and I'm explaining to Western society something that's Middle Eastern cultures and values that goes back generations and thousands of years to tribalism that they can't comprehend. And then I feel a little concerned that, you know, do I feel as though this is going nowhere fast and are we going to devolve? And is my friend not going to want to see me again the next day?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and sadly tribalism really is at the base of what's going on now in the United States. Let me try to say this as succinctly as I possibly can. There have been people in this country for years who have been kind of looked over, neglected, forgotten in terms of the national political conversation, who found an identity in the current former president and that identity gave them a sense of belonging, and all anthropologists and social psychologists will tell you how important belonging is.
Speaker 2:Maslow's hierarchy of needs belonging is important, so they found a sense of belonging. That sense of belonging for many of them is so important that, going back to your point, what if someone actually hears me say you know you have a good point about something that they don't agree with in the group? What if that person decides to think for themselves and recognize one of the tenets of what they base their belonging on is error? Now they have to weigh.
Speaker 2:Am I willing just by simply changing my mind because I've gotten better understanding and I've gotten the truth? Am I willing to lose my friends if I let them know it? Am I willing to lose my church if I let them know it? Am I willing to lose my church if I let them know it? Am I willing to lose my family connections and deepest relationships who are all part is no. So they see their values to belonging to a group so they can stay connected to what has been longing and missing in their lives for so long reasons why people are where they are. But one of the deepest reasons why people are caught up in some of this toxicity is that they have found an identity in something that's larger than themselves and they're willing to see their values and not even hear anything that could possibly contradict what they already believe, because of what they think it might cost them. So they just stay.
Speaker 1:I agree with you a hundred percent and I see this on both sides. When I look at the college campuses today, that's exactly what I see. I see in a lot of circumstances there are students who have started to use critical thinking and they're scared to get out of this because they're so far in and they feel accepted in ways that they didn't before. Because, for whatever reason, did we get to a place where people didn't feel comfortable enough to be their true, authentic self, because they were scared you wouldn't accept them in the first place, first place. And now you've become a version of everyone who's the loudest person around you, and the louder the voices get, the more that echo chamber gets echoier.
Speaker 2:How do you find your way out in that case? Is there a way out? That's tough, susie, because oftentimes people think, because they're louder, that that makes them more right, and it doesn't. Let me just say this about what's happening on college campuses Nobody and I certainly understand this as an African-American, no one should feel the emotional weight of a lack of safety because of who they are. No one, no Jewish student should walk across the yard and be frightened for their lives because they're Jewish. And if that's not vociferously defended and opposed, that's a problem.
Speaker 2:And we can talk about free speech all we want, but if free speech is used to incite harming someone else, then that can't be a part of our First Amendment. We've got to make sure that people are protected in their person, in their bodies and even, to a large degree, psychologically, the emotional weight that is on a lot of Jewish students because in campuses they don't feel safe anymore and it's been made pretty obvious that they're not being protected by the institutions that they should have been protected by, and that's real. And I think that one of the things that we as African-Americans can do is we can identify what it feels like not to feel safe, and I've watched some not all, but some of the conversations in campus, not campus. I'm sorry for Congress from the different presidents, and some of them were trying to walk this line between first amendment rights and free speech and so forth. But when it comes to the safety of your students, you've got to take action.
Speaker 1:You can't just simply say, well, it's their first amendment right, just as you can't go into a theater right and yell fire. Can I ask you a question? Sure, because this is how I was triggered. I didn't think about this when I married my husband. I told you I lived on East fifth street and I grew up in a uh, family that was very Zionist and very proudly Jewish identifying. And so because all of my you know friends in my block didn't care that we were so proudly I'm not even kidding when Halloween came and someone rang my bell and said trick or treat, my mother would say we don't celebrate that. That's how Jewish we were growing up. Now I like throw candy at kids.
Speaker 1:From that trigger, that scar, I just unlocked a core memory. But here's the first thing that occurred to me. It didn't start like that. When I first saw that dollar general shooting, you know, I realized that in Orlando, an hour and a half, two hours from here, there were proud boys that were marching the suburbs. You remember that last summer and, like you said, that feeling of belonging. Why were they marching in the suburbs? Because there are kids who have no friends and there are teens and there are young adults who are in their basements. Well, there's no basements in Florida but they're playing video games and that was a call to them. Here's more misfits like me who don't have right. They were there and the first thing I thought of is why is the black community not screaming their heads off? Why am I so scared because of my Holocaust survivor grandparents that they're coming for my kids? Doesn't this scare the bejesus out of you? Because that was the first thing I thought.
Speaker 1:If it became so easy to round up the Jews, hitler said well, let's not stop there. There's gypsies and let's not stop there. There's political and let's not. There's artists and gays and there's disabilities. Right, it didn't stop with the Jews. So when people on campuses right Now, as like you said, it changed the landscape when I first saw people and I thought, ok, this is a mosaic of people. But then when I started to really look at the campuses and it looked like with all due respect to my privileged white American friends, a bunch of privileged white American students who didn't really have that much to lose to lose, I didn't see as many black kids or African-American kids or minority students on those encampments because they had to weigh what that tarnishing on their record would look like in the future perhaps, but why weren't there more people that were screaming this is racism, this is just straight racism. Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean you were, you have and you do. And, on behalf of my family, I thank you because I didn't think for one second if I had to hide my kids which is, by the way, a question every Jewish mother asks herself who would hide my kids? I will be at your congregation with my two children and you and lady O will be the de facto. They're wonderful children. They don't clean up after themselves. I'm telling you now, but you said outright who you are and whose you are. You are a child of God. You stand for social justice, truth and faith, and I said oh good, where was? Was everyone else?
Speaker 2:I think particularly the african-american community, and we're not monolithic, as you know that, but many, many, many of us in the african-american community identify, in this particular season in which we live in culture, with the, the oppression of the palestinian people. That's the reality. Okay, that's, that's really the reality of the Palestinian people.
Speaker 2:That's the reality of it, that's really the reality of it. And oppression as an overarching meta-narrative. When you look at oppression in the world, we who have been so oppressed easily identify with others who we see are being oppressed or feel are being oppressed, and then no one seems to be necessarily going to the, the derivation or the root of it. It's, it's what's happening now, and so you know. And this kind of leads to something else which is really important. Were you there with at the, the vigil, rabbi Lippeners? Yes, okay, yes, okay.
Speaker 2:And we get so easily caught up on sides that we don't realize the only way to really win is peace, yeah, and are we willing to pay peace's price? Because it's a high price, and that's the ultimate question. Are we willing Because peace says here's the price, and that's that's the ultimate question? Are we willing Cause P says here's the price? The price is you're not going to get everything you want, but the price that you pay is people stop dying as a result. Are you willing to pay that price? And on both sides the answer clearly is not yet. And so how do we find that? As we saw that night beautifully, I mean, and this is something about the receptivity and I learned this first in Israel, the receptivity in the Jewish community of you know, I didn't realize there were Israeli, arab as rate um uh, israeli, um, arab, israelis.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yes, yes yes.
Speaker 2:Went over there. I said that what Right?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, wait until you meet an Asian Israeli speaking Hebrew, with a Chinese accent. I will take you to Chinese dinner in Jerusalem. But every shape color size and every shape color size, and that is something that people don't recognize when it comes to Israel, when it comes to Arabs, when it comes to Jews, I went to Haifa and Arabs and Jews having lunch together. Yes.
Speaker 2:It was just amazing.
Speaker 1:Ahmad and Salim is my husband's number one humus area, which is a pizzeria for humus. Yeah, ahmad and Salim, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:And so you know people forget that Ishmael and Isaac eventually came together when they buried Abraham, and and that's what my prayer is that eventually we'll stop saying who wants to be more right and like what is it going to take for us to bury this so we can start living in peace? And I don't know what that price is, but that's the price that peace asks both sides to pay in order to stop the conflict. We heard it that night that arguing on both sides is not really bringing peace. You got to fight for peace. Peace is the only way out. And I think then you start getting into other aspects of the politicization of it, and I don't want to get into that. But sometimes the tail wags the dog and people decide war is better than peace because if I get peace then they're going to remember how bad I am and kick me out.
Speaker 1:I won't go there anyway there's a whole slew of things, right.
Speaker 2:There's a whole slew of things.
Speaker 1:But here's the bottom line Will it please God, is it good for my family and will it make me happy or is it good for the community If we had to distill it down to those three questions? Is there a basis for something that takes us, like you said, above politics? Right, when I started this podcast, that was the purpose. What was above politics? Global citizenship. I wanted us to go back to the basis, to SEDEC, to justice, and that superseded all of the things that divided us. It was sort of like, like you know, we say the gut instinct, because you feel it before your brain can confirm or deny it, because those neurons they live there from when you were created in the womb and so if it doesn't feel right, it's probably wrong. Why is that so simple and yet so difficult to attain?
Speaker 2:I think it goes back to what I'm saying before, because we get vested in positions and we get connected on a visceral level to your point, to where we just will protect that visceral decision we've made, because when it's that deep, it becomes an identifier and when it becomes a part of your identity, you can actually get to a point where, if I give this up, do I know who I am anymore? And so people hold on to things, even things that are toxic. I think also and COVID could have done this the thing that really is going to bring people together so that the sky and the land because, as you know, in Tohupovohu, you know, the sky and the land come back together.
Speaker 2:Yes, God wants it to. Something has to threaten all of us enough to lay down our stupidity, oh my gosh. Something has to say to us whoa, we're fighting about what, and this can kill all of us out what, and this can kill all of us. Until we have something that really causes us to weigh the consequences of our behavior, we will continue the behavior.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, COVID could have done it, but it got politicized because people were fearful of losing power, fearful of losing power. And then it was as we saw you know started to spiral. Yeah, it started to spiral go down into this away from humanity away from it. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And into positional and political.
Speaker 1:And here we are all this time later, and I mean, it reminds me right, we say I've often, you know, talked about how, during the time of Noah, why is it that God decided to just get rid of everything and with the flood, but not that tower of Babel? The tower of Babel, they were building it to fight God. They were going to take on God and he said, no, them, I'm not taking down. Why? Because they were working together for a common cause, but at the time of Noah they were not.
Speaker 2:That is an interpretation. An interpretation they were trying to actually get rid of the diversity and be all one.
Speaker 1:Like homogenous yeah.
Speaker 2:That is not how I made you.
Speaker 1:That's not how I made you. That's not how I made you Smack that right, and I like your interpretation too. It is a privilege. Can you tell our guests where they can see you in person, where they can find you online, because I look forward to your worship.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you. We are on every Sunday morning at nine o'clock on Facebook or YouTube the sanctuary at Mount Calvary, just as it sounds, and on Wednesday evenings, facebook, youtube. Oh, also forgot to mention that if you download Holy Connection TV on Roku, you can watch us there too, and soon you'll be able to watch us on Apple TV as well.
Speaker 1:Oh, fabulous.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, but right now primarily Facebook, YouTube, and you can catch us on Wednesday evenings at seven.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And we have a blast. As you know, we have a really.
Speaker 1:I enjoy it. I really enjoy it, and I will say this if you are looking for an intelligent, empathetic and very, very passionate keynote speaker, I cannot recommend you more than it's such a privilege to learn from you and with you, and I feel called to have you back, I hope, next season for continued conversation. It's such a such a privilege. So is there anything upcoming that you want to share?
Speaker 2:Yeah, actually we're having a community fair on the 8th and we're going to have different vendors and different services available to people in the community. So we'd love to have people come out June 8th. And yeah, june the 8th from nine until noon. And you know, I forgot to mention that at Ahavath you said we've worked with them in the past and I meant to mention that. When we talk about my relationship with the community. Here we've actually exchanged pulpits.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:I think it was Rabbi Leaf at that point when we did that. But we're talking to Maya.
Speaker 1:Rabbi Glasser, yes, about Pulpit Swap. That's exactly it. So we talked about all of these interesting things, which is why I'm very excited to come and visit you in person. See, not just remotely, but I like to be there in person. I have a hat and everything picked out. I've been watching the videos. I know, okay, I understand the assignment. I would really appreciate if you could send my regards to your beautiful bride and congratulate her on her recent yes, she got her doctorate as well, right?
Speaker 2:And she's in law school. Yes, she'll finish law school in May of next year, this time next year God bless. Jd-mba hybrid. Yes, and she's right now in Ghana.
Speaker 1:She's in Africa.
Speaker 2:She's in Africa for two weeks. She's been there with a part of a cohort from Southern University, the MBA program. Wow, there's a program over there, a corresponding school, and so they have this, you know, sister school kind of thing, and so she's over there through the MBA programs.
Speaker 1:Oh, we're going to have to do a conversation about couples and how to engage. That would be great. I'll bring Ben on. We'll do a couple's talk, right? I know usually they they talk about sports. They don't like to talk about the spiritual stuff like us. They talk yeah, ravens, browns. I don't know, it's not my deal, I don't know anything.
Speaker 2:Now. My wife is from Ohio, so you mentioned the Browns. She's all in.
Speaker 1:Yes, I know, that's it. That's it. I don't know anything about anything. You want to talk about God and community? I'm your girl. You want to talk about football? That's my current husband.
Speaker 2:That'd be fun.
Speaker 1:Yes, I look forward to it. Thank you, Pastor, for being here. It's always such a privilege.
Speaker 2:Thank you for the opportunity and bless you Thank you, and now it's time for our honorable mention.
Speaker 1:Menj is the Yiddish word for a person of integrity who does the right thing because it's the right thing to do. Today's honorable mench is Dr Tracy Polson. You might be familiar with Dr Tracy Polson from Mayor Donna Deegan's administration, but I am familiar with Dr Tracy Polson because she is an advocate for mental health. She has made an impact in some of the most underserved communities here in the city where I'm raising my children. She has advocated for the unhoused, for the chronically ill, for the addicted, for the infected, for the needy, for the foster, for the recovering. Dr Polson has not stopped advocating to, for and about every part of Jacksonville, and now we are fortunate enough to watch her engage in a number of grants and opportunities to enhance us, because a rising tide lifts all ships.
Speaker 1:If you know of someone who is the kind of mensch who should get an honorable mention, send me a note at schmoozewithsuesorg or drop me a line on Instagram. That's going to do it for us today. Thanks for sticking around. Make sure to subscribe to Schmooze with Suze on YouTube and follow me on Instagram to get your daily dose of chutzpah. I'm Suze, your well-informed, smart ass who's not afraid to stand up and speak out, because what's an envelope if not for pushing? Hey, stay inspired and inspiring. Thank you.