I Thought We Were Here To Learn New Things With New People? My Guest: Matt Hartley- Director of University of North Florida's Interfaith Center

Back in the 1900s, when I was away at college, the first high holidays rolled around. It was such a schlep home, that I opted to stay on campus. 

Considering this was my first time not sitting beside my mommy at my parents' place of worship where I had grown up, I remember being excited to shop around. I had only *heard* of other denominations. And after 12 solid years of hardcore religious studies- plus a gap year in Israel- I was ready to explore.

I felt so much like Goldilocks attending service after service… For this I was too hard and for this I was too soft… But there was no place that suggested I was “just right enough.” And I wish there had been a place to engage in conversations- of all kinds!- while I was trying to figure it out, so that I could remain connected instead of pulling away. 

SO, should we provide spaces for young adults to build relationships around their spiritual differences in an effort to contribute to a future of unity?

And that is what we are going to tackle today….

My guest today is Matt Hartley, a career public educator, Christian faith leader with a passion for youth and young adult leadership development and Interfaith engagement. He is currently the Director of the University of North Florida’s Interfaith Center. 

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Back in the 1900s, when I was away at college, the first high holidays rolled around. It was such a schlep home that I opted to stay on campus. Considering this was my first time not sitting beside my mommy at my parents' place of worship where I had grown up, I remember being excited to shop around. I had only heard of other denominations and after 12 solid years of hardcore religious studies, plus a gap here in Israel, I was ready to explore. I felt so much like Goldilocks, attending service after service. For this I was too hard and for this I was too soft. But there was no place that suggested I was just right enough, and I wish there had been a place to engage in conversation of any kind while I was trying to figure it out, so that I could remain connected instead of pulling away. So should we provide spaces for young adults to build relationships around their spiritual differences in an effort to contribute to a future of unity, and that is what we are going to tackle today? Hi, I'm Sue's here with your weekly dose of culture, values and identity, and where we tackle those topics others may consider off limits.

Speaker 1: 1:20

A little about me I'm a busy Gen X mom who, quite frankly, wanted to grow up like the Brady Bunch, but how could I be raised in the shadow of Schindler's list? So this means I've spent a lifetime navigating these mixed messages we get hit with daily. You know those conversations where we wonder if it's safe to speak our minds. Can we share our experiences, voice our fears and concerns, or should we just keep our mouths shut? Well, too bad. I need to know, but I'm no expert, so I'm going to schmooze the experts and get their thoughts. Why, when we engage with our kids, colleagues or the countless committees we interact with, we can do it with competence, kindness, confidence and maybe a bit of humor.

Speaker 1: 2:04

If this sounds like your cup of coffee, welcome to Schmooze with Sue's. Like many young adults in the midst of questioning so many other things in my life, I just gave up trying to find a place of faith on campus that worked for me and ultimately, after so many years off the grid, so to speak, while I considered myself culturally religious, I was feeling zero in the spirituality department and would have been grateful to have met someone like my guest today. Matt Hartley is a career public educator, christian faith leader, with a passion for youth and young adult leadership development and interfaith engagement. He is the director of the University of North Florida's Interfaith Center, hi Matt Good morning.

Speaker 1: 2:51

Sue's, it's good to see you. It's good to see you as well. We've been orbiting each other's atmosphere for a while now, right?

Speaker 2: 2:58

Yeah, well, I was thinking back to the race cards conversation that we had in December and connecting race and religion, and that really goes to what you're talking about, about creating a space where we can have those conversations about how our identities intersect.

Speaker 1: 3:14

Right right, it's not so much what we share in common, that's the easy part. It's what makes us individuals that we sort of have to lean into to understand each other better. So the vision of UNF Interfaith Center is to promote interfaith cooperation as a UNF priority and establish religious pluralism as a cornerstone of diversity on campus, in the community and beyond. So let's start with the fancy schmancy language. What is religious pluralism?

Speaker 2: 3:45

And I know, in case you don't Religious pluralism is what we do with religious diversity. So diversity is a reality in our world and religious diversity is a reality. We have Christians and Muslims and Jews. We have atheists, diagnostics and people who have no label at all. So religious pluralism is the good that we can do when we bring together people of diverse religious and non-religious identities.

Speaker 1: 4:13

So it's to paraphrase it's an experience where everybody has the rights and the freedoms and safety to worship or not to worship, according to their conscience.

Speaker 2: 4:26

Correct, and it's also a space at UNF where students can come together in a third space to explore those differences together or to invite each other, to go with each other into their particular spaces of worship and to feel comfortable and welcome, to learn more, to understand, to see firsthand what it's like to be a particular religion.

Speaker 1: 4:57

I love that. So the first time I met you at that 904 word race cards experience, what completely impressed me was that you came in with rules. You handed us each a little index card with brave space rules and that set the tone for what this experience would be like. Can you explain a little bit more about brave space, safe space, what that means in the context of the Interfaith Center, especially on a campus?

Speaker 2: 5:23

Right, so brave space. Guidelines set the tone for conversations and there are some guidelines that you've probably heard in other conversations you've had, like one person speaking at a time, having respect for everyone, practicing forgiveness. These are things that, at the beginning of a conversation, they shape how we enter into relationship with each other. So what I found in five years at the Interfaith Center is that those guidelines usually set the tone and we don't usually even have to revisit them, but when we have moments of tension during the conversation, we can to remind people. This is how we want to treat each other with respect with regard to these topics that where we differ and sometimes where we might find tension.

Speaker 1: 6:16

So I want to say something that I found to be very interesting. Somebody said to me I can't believe that in a group of adults they had to put these cards down and I was reminded that I have fair fighting rules for me and my husband posted on our refrigerator, because I think that giving guidelines to anyone in the context of conversation helps to know what your role is right. Sometimes you're there and it says it specifically. Sometimes we're here just to listen. We're listening to learn, we're not listening to respond. And do you find that it's effective?

Speaker 2: 6:56

Yeah, I find that the students that usually enter our spaces are already entering with a mentality of mutual curiosity. They want to learn about each other, but that's not always the case, and sometimes we we host Controversial topics, and sometimes folks come because they want to argue, and so we need to make sure to remind people that we can disagree, but we can do so in a way that is in a Spirit of understanding not hostility right rather than debate or or defeating right so it's not a matter of me having to be.

Speaker 1: 7:40

In order for me to be right, I have to make you wrong. There's opening the space for the possibility of more than one right.

Speaker 2: 7:48

Mm-hmm, yeah, and a dialogue that can move forward along the lines of of seeing where the differences are again, rather than trying to completely flatten or or or End those differences.

Speaker 1: 8:02

So, in the words of a famous fish, just keep swimming, just keep swimming. I love it. So let's talk a little bit more about the interfaith centers. Core values we talked about religious pluralism. Some of the other ones include interfaith literacy, community engagement, social cohesion, ideological freedom, mutual respect and civility. Environmental stewardship this sounds a lot like empathy and global citizenship to me. What are examples of what this looks like on campus?

Speaker 2: 8:34

so I Talk a lot about Accommodation, celebration and conversation.

Speaker 2: 8:40

I like that buzzword say those three again Accommodation, celebration and conversation. Okay, those are three of the major points that we hit with the interface center. So, first of all, accommodation means that students who come to campus should feel like campus is a home for them, and so for some of our students, who may have particular religious practices that don't align with you know, let's be real, we have campuses that are very comfortable for a An audience who is either not religious or who is, who are Christian. So an example would be if you go to the Osprey cafe For Christians there's not a lot of dietary Concerns, a lot of dietary restrictions, maybe certain times of the year, maybe certain sex of Christianity, but for the most part, yeah, you can just eat whatever.

Speaker 1: 9:34

So there's a fish sandwich on Friday, standard right Gotcha.

Speaker 2: 9:38

So what are we gonna do for Jewish students, for Muslim students, if kosher and halal requirements, and the reality is that campuses really need to be mindful to think about how they can accommodate those practices. Otherwise it doesn't happen, and we're a work in progress at UNF, but by having an interfaith center We've been able to make accommodation An important part of how we think about making the university more inclusive. So another example would be having a regular prayer room on campus. So our Muslim students especially pray five times a day. Several of those prayers may be during times when they would be on campus, and Up until a couple years ago we had a small Prayer room about the size of an office that they could use, which it's great that we had that. Yes, but they came to us and they said hey, we would like to pray as a community.

Speaker 2: 10:33

There's a lot of us that have to pray at the same time every day and we don't fit in an office, sightless prayer room right, and so I'm so grateful to them for advocating for themselves. And then, because they knew they had an interfaith center, they could come to us and say this is a need that we have, and then we were able to work together with the campus and now we have a much larger prayer and reflection room on campus that other students are using to. Jewish students Are, yes, non-religious students are using it, so it serves those Muslim students, but in the spirit of a public university, it's become a resource for everyone.

Speaker 1: 11:09

I love it. So what is the other two catchphrases we said?

Speaker 2: 11:13

right. So celebration is what I mentioned earlier. Earlier, and that's about where we try to partner with student organizations. For example in their particular practices, like the Asian Students and Alliance doing a Diwali celebration, and we want to let them shape that celebration.

Speaker 2: 11:30

Yeah we want to let the Muslim students shape the Eid celebration, but we, as the interface center, want to provide staffing, support, budget, anything we can do to make that event even bigger and more vibrant and robust and what they want it to be to be able to celebrate with their fellow students on campus.

Speaker 2: 11:50

So celebration is a big part of what we, of how we Bring forward religious diversity on campus as well. And then, finally, conversation is where we provide a space for a lot of different voices and I think this is where we can. We can hit on inclusion the most, because when we talk about intersectionality in Religious diversity, our students have these identities that don't fit neatly into one religious category. They're not just Muslim, right, just Jewish, christian, atheist. They have a lot of different parts of their identity. So, for instance, we have we had a coffee and conversation on Muslim youth growing up in the South and that's been an interesting experience for these Muslim students, especially in the wake of of 9-11, facing a variety of Islamophobic trends that we've seen in society and what that how that plays out in the deep South of Jacksonville, florida on.

Speaker 2: 12:49

UNF's campus.

Speaker 1: 12:50

What about the rise of anti-Semitism? I know that on the UF nafs campus there have been a number in recent the last year of Incidents. Have they been addressed by you? Did those students come to you to talk about it?

Speaker 2: 13:02

Yeah, yeah. So you know it's something that you don't want to have to. You don't want it to happen so that you have to provide support in the first place. Feels, feels tragic. But our Jewish students have come to us Wanting to have coffee and conversations about the impact of anti-Semitism and they're going back into their Pre-UNF experience right there, bringing their experience some of them that they had in high school and saying, look, this was not addressed. Hmm, when I was in high school, for example, I, um, well, we I don't want to share too much of a personal students details, but they had an example from high school of us, of a, of a student who was, um, uh, saying anti-semitic things to them and, um, the outcome was not good.

Speaker 1: 13:49

So what is it in the context of? They felt, um, not prepared or uneducated in a way to handle this?

Speaker 2: 13:56

And it wasn't addressed by by the authorities in their school, and so then that that student did further things that were further harmful.

Speaker 1: 14:04

Disacervating the situation all the way through college.

Speaker 2: 14:07

Um, uh, no, through, uh, through high school, and this led to um. So this student coming to UNF wanted to reflect on that experience and share that with us, saying this is not what I want to happen on my campus.

Speaker 1: 14:22

So they were proactively let me just get this straight. They're proactively addressing concerns that they had had and they're saying to you, matt, I want to make sure that here at UNF I have a positive, uplifting experience. So let's know that you and I, you and the school, all of us together are working towards a better future by being prepared, by being informed, by doing the right things.

Speaker 2: 14:48

Correct and so that student had that uh wherewithal, had that initiative. And then, sadly, we had several other incidents on campus that touched on anti-semitism. But because of that students initiative, because of the interfaith center being there and being active in countering anti-semitism on campus, we were able in those moments to come together very quickly and bring together faculty staff administration to have conversations about how we could improve the university's response and continue to support our Jewish students and just be unified in the face of the rising trends of anti-semitism that we see.

Speaker 1: 15:32

So, in conjunction with your work and with your help, a traumatic situation to a student led them to a position of leadership. They didn't take the victim mentality. They became somebody who can learn from this experience and contribute to yeah.

Speaker 2: 15:49

And this was a student who restarted the Jewish Student Union on campus yeah, you mentioned that.

Speaker 2: 15:54

Yeah, so, um, so they've really taken that role and then passed it on to other students who have now taken on that responsibility. Um, I'll just say this last year we had an unfortunate incident on campus, um, where a swastika on a post-it note was placed on a student's door and, um, and it brought together, you know, beyond that evil act, it brought together this kind of storm on campus between the campus media, the campus newspaper and the different, like diverse, jewish identities on campus.

Speaker 2: 16:36

And it was a little bit of difficulty understanding each other, and so we brought together a group of Jewish students and the campus media to talk together about how can we, you know, address issues that happen on campus in ways that make people feel safe. And what came out of that conversation? Um, I'll tell you first of all that we didn't come out of that conversation with everyone agreeing. By the end of that conversation, people still weren't necessarily feeling that they were fully understood or that the other person was fully right, but they had listened to each other, gotcha.

Speaker 2: 17:17

And what came out of it was that then the uh, the school newspaper began to intentionally reach out and do more positive coverage, um of the Jewish community on campus of the kosher cafeteria of the campus center over there Right, and so we created this opportunity right Education information to avoid misconceptions or those, you know what we worry about and uh yeah, and that that was a very difficult conversation to host, and that's that's something where it helps to have a professional who understands the diversity of a religious community, who understands brave space guidelines and how to really hold people to um, being able to hold space for each other even in their disagreement, and we were able to get to this positive good beyond that, All right, let's talk about why any of what you do really matters, because what you just described is exactly where I started this discussion.

Speaker 1: 18:13

I had gone to 12 years of religious school and I had gone to and I was from a practicing family. When I got to a college campus, like you said, there were so many options of Judaism, so many flavors and strains that had not been in my universe. Right, I'd first been exposed to something that was different, that I'd only heard of, and I didn't know where to begin. Right, it's almost like Baskin Robbins 41 flavors and I was like, let me taste everything, but nothing felt like it fit, and so I gave up. We all have all this beauty and opportunity in the world, right? Yeah, people die miserably.

Speaker 1: 18:49

We are currently in a global mental health crisis that is ruthlessly affecting teens and young adults at a rate unlike anything the world has ever seen. This fact is abundantly well known by those under 50 and completely unknown to those over 50. So, being on a college campus, you're sort of like treading both directions. We recently discovered that you had begun reading Soul Boom by Rainn Wilson, who played Dwight Schrute, believe it or not, on the TV show the Office. Did you watch the Office?

Speaker 2: 19:18

Yes, big fan.

Speaker 1: 19:19

Are you? Wow, I never watched it, and so when I, you know, heard of the book, I wasn't weirded out by it. What did you think?

Speaker 2: 19:30

I think if you're familiar with Dwight Schrute, it's pretty funny to think about the actor who played him being a spiritual sage.

Speaker 1: 19:38

He's like a guru, he's a sage right. So I read this book, I listened to this book, I listened to him read this book and I have not stopped recommending this book. In Soul Boom, he explores the problem solving benefits that spirituality gives us to create solutions for an increasingly challenging world. In it, he talks about what mental health specialists call deaths of despair. Deaths of despair is a catch-all phrase that covers alcohol and drug abuse, as well as suicide. It is the name used to describe a marker of the noticeably decreasing lifespan over the last decade. It includes loneliness, anxiety, addiction and suicide among young adults, and the statistics are actually staggering. Died is the second leading cause of death in children 10 to 14, and is the third leading cause of death among those aged 15 to 24. The rate of suicide-related thoughts in young adults increased by 47 percent from 2008 to 2017, and is only increasing since 2020. Anxiety and depression rates have increased and the starting age of anxiety and depression symptoms have decreased. What do you think this has to do with spirituality?

Speaker 2: 21:01

Here's where my mind goes first, and it's to something beautiful, and that is the student interfaith leadership community at UNF. We call it the Better Together team.

Speaker 1: 21:13

Wow.

Speaker 2: 21:15

And the Better Together team is one of the most diverse groups of students that you'll meet on campus, not just religiously, but ethnically, racially, gender and sexual identity. It is truly a cross-section of the diversity that exists on campus and they are more than a team. They are actually a support network and, to some degree, have made each other family. They spend time together, sharing meals outside of the things that I schedule. What they do for the Interfaith Center is very much a service and volunteering, but they have made this community of diversity together. So when I think about what young people have gone through over the last, especially over the last three years of pandemic and the epidemic of loneliness, and how that's connected to mental health and how that's led to deaths of despair, one of the things that I think of is the ways that our students have been isolated and there are factors like social media which have had negative impacts that have created a sense of isolation and maybe a false sense of community.

Speaker 1: 22:42

Yeah, what about all my Facebook friends? I have like over a thousand Facebook friends.

Speaker 2: 22:47

You know, I like to say that we can make social media good. I'm very active on Twitter, maybe famously, maybe infamously. I know, and I always tell people that you can make it good by making it real, and so we meet up in person. But social media can also serve to just keep us behind the keyboard.

Speaker 1: 23:10

So until 2018, seniors have always historically been the loneliest demographic, and since 2018, young adults aged 18 to 22 reported feeling lonely at higher rates than seniors. Gen Z is tracking at a rate of loneliness at nearly 50%. So this sounds to me like you are meeting that need before those numbers continue to climb. You're creating that face-to-face interaction.

Speaker 2: 23:40

That's exactly what's happening with the Better Together team. That's what's happening across diversity work at UNF. It's drawing people out of their isolation and I think a lot of us felt, maybe, that it was difficult to come out of that isolation as much as we wanted it. After COVID it was also strange and different and to be interacting again. We maybe forgot some of the ways that we would form social cohesion, some of those muscles at atrophy.

Speaker 1: 24:15

Are you talking about when I eat with my fingers?

Speaker 2: 24:17

Well, I do that.

Speaker 1: 24:18

That too.

Speaker 2: 24:20

I actually do eat with my fingers quite a bit, and that was before COVID and that's after COVID, not much has changed in that regard.

Speaker 1: 24:27

And we still respect you because we have a brave space.

Speaker 2: 24:30

We do.

Speaker 1: 24:31

Right. So how does the landscape of education affect students' curiosity and how is that tied to mental health and mental wellness? So you're working with a lot of like I said back when I was in my early 20s and I was exploring all these things, there were so many news to me. It was the first time I was on my own. It was the first time I was learning to navigate a budget. It was the first time I was learning to navigate how to party late but wake up early. Right, there was nobody there to tell me or encourage me. I had to create that sense of community on my own.

Speaker 2: 25:07

I think there's two ways that curiosity opens up a lot of positive avenues for mental health for students.

Speaker 2: 25:17

One is the curiosity about each other, and that's what we see on the Better Together team.

Speaker 2: 25:22

So when they wanna ask I wanna understand you, what makes you tick, what traditions are part of your life, what stories matter to you, that kind of opening, that empathy to someone is just healthy, right, it's just it's good for us and then it's a good that we're giving to someone else and then it's a creating a relationship, an avenue that we can continue to travel together.

Speaker 2: 25:49

The other piece of it is that I think it opens students up to that, those deeper questions of life that really matter, because I think in college life the tension and struggle is are we going for the career? Are we going for just the absolute most blast and fun that we can have in college, or is there something else that can include those things but is maybe more grounded, that is curious about the deeper questions of life and, to be clear, that can include having fun at college and that can include focusing on career. But sometimes those two things can overtake in a way that frankly and I think Rayne Wilson is speaking to this in Soul Boom, that the pure reach for ambition or the pure reach for pleasure are maybe not satisfying and maybe cause us to get to lose our balance in life bringing those things into a holistic viewpoint, that's curious about how those things are integrated into a meaningful life.

Speaker 2: 27:05

Those are deep questions that can ground students as they're facing various forces in society that are really difficult to face, as they might be facing their own just mental health landscape. Becoming grounded in those things provides an opportunity, along with those relationships that curiosity can lead to.

Speaker 1: 27:23

So if you're making those spaces for people to have these conversations, which sounds ideal, why do we have so much trouble making space for disagreements and discomfort when we encounter differences, if we've been given the guidelines and we've literally been given the rules you said, you sometimes have people come in with the intention to debate or to present hostile opposition.

Speaker 2: 27:49

Um, what I'll say for the quality of the brave space guidelines and, I think, a very human instinct for empathy and common ground is that, though we've had situations in conversations where we bring the brave space guidelines back to the fore and remind people because they've maybe focused too much on debate or disagreement or hostility, we've almost never had a situation where that wasn't responded well to, and I'll give you an example of this. On campus at UNF, we have these campus preachers, and people will be familiar with campus preachers who come to campus occasionally and cause a big stir by saying outrageous things, sometimes stirring up a lot of hate. But we have had a group that's come consistently to campus at UNF since 2019 or before, and so this is a local group and they in some ways seem like true believers. They're not just trying to be outrageous, they believe what they're preaching and they're on a mission and they really disrupt campus and they do it in a way that students justifiably view as hateful.

Speaker 2: 29:14

Now, believe it or not, we had a coffee and conversation about them a couple years ago and they came to our coffee and conversation and I will say that was the one and only time that I have seen them abide by civil discourse rules was when they came to our conversation, where we set the brave space guidelines ahead of time, and there was not a moment in that conversation where I had to moderate and say, no, this is not the right space for this. They simply presented their viewpoint and they did it without taking up too much time, and afterwards our students thanked them for that, and then, of course, they were back out on the green less than an hour later, finding our Muslim students on campus and preaching against Islam, like right next to them.

Speaker 1: 30:08

I was so happy when you started this story because I said, ah, as adults, shouldn't we be modeling conflict resolution for our young adults? Right? And then you backslid, okay, but at least we know that in some form there was the opportunity for that. So let's talk about more of those services the center offers, as well as upcoming events. You mentioned coffee and conversations. Chew on this. I dinner, there's a lot of eating. There's a lot of snacking and gnashing happening. I feel like you're my people.

Speaker 2: 30:43

Give college students food.

Speaker 1: 30:45

Give anybody food and they will attend your event.

Speaker 2: 30:49

That's a spiritual practice.

Speaker 1: 30:51

It's how we get to know each other best. A little Camus never hurt anyone. So talk to me about your engagement. What kind of engagement you get? Where we could find the information?

Speaker 2: 31:02

Yes, so the UNF Interface Center supports religious and non-religious diversity on campus.

Speaker 1: 31:08

Where are you on campus?

Speaker 2: 31:09

If someone wanted to find you, we're in building to Founders Hall on the first floor in suite 1400.

Speaker 1: 31:15

They have coffee.

Speaker 2: 31:16

We do. We do have coffee, and so we support religious and non-religious diversity on campus, primarily through student programming and student leadership. We also support faculty and staff as well. As far as programs concerned, we do a lot of programming through the fall and spring semesters. Right now, in the summer semester, we are planning some conversations about critical hope in difficult times, and so that's our upcoming conversation, and we'll have a date for that soon. So summer is a little bit more slow for us, and we're also in a transitional time right now because of what's going on in the state with laws about diversity and inclusion. We're having to consider what our future work will look like, and that's not completely clear at this moment.

Speaker 1: 32:09

Well, I am very grateful that I get to see you, matt, and for your important work on and off campus, and Jacksonville is lucky to have people like you who believe, as Rainn Wilson writes, essentially by healing the spiritual disease of otherness we can create the big, diverse human family most of us long for.

Speaker 2: 32:30

Thank you, Suz.

Speaker 1: 32:31

Thank you so much for being here. You can find out more at wwwunfedu. Now it's time for our honorable mention. Honorable Mence is the Yiddish word for a person of integrity and honor, with a sense of what is right and responsible.

Speaker 1: 32:50

This week's honorable Mence is Connie Smith, my friend and winner of the 2023 Mutual Curiosity Award from the Interfaith Center of Northeast Florida. Several years ago, she ventured out to create a space to bridge the gap between her Christian faith and women of other faith traditions. From this desire stemmed Jacksonville's branch of the Daughters of Abraham, a local interfaith book club that brings together women of the three Abrahamic faiths Judaism, christianity and Islam. The space is not only a great opportunity to learn about other religions, but Connie and her welcoming spirit have really put together a unique community of friends. In 2022, she helped launch a second location, a new Daughters chapter in World Golf Village.

Speaker 1: 33:39

If you know of someone who is the kind of Mence who should get an honorable mention, send me a note at schmoozewithsuesorg or drop me a line on Instagram. That's going to do it for us today. Thanks for sticking around. Make sure to subscribe to Schmooze with Sues on YouTube and follow me on Instagram to get your daily dose of chutzpah. I'm Sues, your well-informed smartass who's not afraid to stand up and speak out. Because what's an envelope if not for pushing? Hey, stay inspired and inspired.